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Starrk vs. Soi Fon - Page 3


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View Poll Results: Starrk and Lilynette or Soi Fon and Omaeda?
Starrk and Lilynette 29 93.55%
Soi Fon and Omaeda 2 6.45%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 10-20-2012, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Stark lolblitzes soifon in base. Soifon stands no chance here at all.
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2012, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Quote:
Originally Posted by goke View Post
It's funny how people find ways to throw Ichigo into the mix. No matter.
I only brought him up because he was blitzed by Starrk.

Quote:
Blitz is a very strong word. And we know that Ichigo was recovering at the time.
He was healed.As Buzz already said Ichigo went to fight Ulquiorra right after Starrk took her to Aizen's palace.

Quote:
+ Ichigo is not even a factor when it comes to Sui Feng's speed. "Blitzing" people Sui Feng is clearly faster than hardly counts as being fast enough to escape death.
First of all when talking about speed i include
1)reaction time(aka reflexes)
2)movement speed and
3)shunpo/sonido.
Starrk showed very good movement speed as well as sonido and also had great reflexes.
Just because SoiFon might be faster(in her movemnt speed) than Starrk, that doesn't automatically mean she can win.

Quote:
Barragan has the ability to move through time. Sui Feng never landed a hit on him even with her great speed in Shikai.
Well of course she couldn't land a hit on him since she's a cloese range fighter when she uses shikai.And as we know Barragan can only slow time around him.

Quote:
Saying Starrk is a moving target in comparison is like saying Aizen could have dodged Mugetsu, or Renji could have dodged Byakuya's B61. Or that Dordonii could have dodged Ichigo's Kuroi Getsuga. Point being that Jakuho Raikoben was so fast that Barragan who had dodged her attack all day by Sonido and time control, could not dodge it. and neither would Starrk.
This comparison can't simply work since Mugetsu was instantaneous.
And just because Barragan (hypothetically) couldn't dodge doesn't mean a thing about Starrk who has great speed feats unlike Barragan.


Quote:
I really don't see how Starrk wins this battle.
That's because you're clearly underestimating him.


Quote:
I don't think grazes count as hits. The only time Starrk landed a hit with his Cero was at point blank, and how much damage did that do?
I answered to that because you claimed he couldn't hit Shunsui at all.I wasn't replying about the damage.Besides if the same Cero hit Soi Fon, i doubt she would recover as quickly as Shunsui who seems to be more durable than her.
Quote:
He showed great speed in dodging Uki's reflections, but those were the same attacks Shunsui had been dodging all weekend.
Thing is they weren't the same attacks, they faster as Ukitake's ability allow him to send the Ceros back with greater speed than the original.That's another speed feat for Starrk btw.

Quote:
His Resurrecion did not give him any noticeable boosts of speed. After all, he didn't get hit until after Barragan died. However, I think that speed will come to be a factor, as it always is when Sui Feng is involved. Starrk may keep up, but Soi Fon is faster, much, much faster.
You still haven't convinced me as to why SoiFon is faster.Aside form her shunpo where she can create several clones of her(as she demonstrated against Aizen) all of her other speed feats don't show her as faster than Starrk.
Speed is indeed important in fights, but it doesn't automatically win fights.

Quote:
To say Starrk wins in base is the height of blindness to my mind.
Imo Base Starrk VS Shikai SoiFon with shunkou would be a great fight that could go both ways.

Quote:
Because Starrk did nothing in base save for grazing Shunsui and firing a Cero without warning. A Cero Shunsui dodged regardless.
Maybe because both him and Shunsui weren't even serious?
Besides he managed to land a hit on Shunsui and cut his hat along with his face(although it was a minor injury).And Starrk wasn't hit even once nor grazed in his fight with Shunsui.

Quote:
His released form, as I said, didn't bring that much to the battle either. Shunsui never hit him in base.
Speed-wise, we can't really know if he had a boost.It reminds me of Ulquiorra's second release where we don't know how much faster and stronger he became.

Quote:
But Starrk never got a decided hit in his Los Lobos form. His wolves overwhelmed the mock-Arrancars, but are nothing to speed of Sui Feng and power of Jakuho Raikoben.
Starrk never fought to kill.He even warned Love and Rose that he was about to give the finishing blow.

Quote:
Hard to see the remotest possibility of Starrk winning
A good pair of glasses would solve this problem

P.S. DaemonLord00: Why did you interrupt us? (j/k)
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2012, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

@Ody. Lol, I wasn't even considering Shunkou. Shunkou only makes the fight shorter. Especially if Starrk is in base. Completely forgot. But I think my response to the great Daemon covers some of your responses.

I do have one thing to say on the topic of reaction speed and all what not, I think that speed is still speed. Nothing suggests that Sui Feng has slow reaction speed, evasion speed or any other speed. Except where the enemy bends time and moves through it. Except where the enemy's attack speed is so fast that it couldn't be avoided. [This case also applies to Jakuho Raikoben. @Daemon says Barragan "stayed to show her the power of Respira" and Senescia, but I think He did much of that before Sui Feng went away. I also pointed out that nothing in His demeanour suggested arrogance in the face of a bankai, especially as He had not seen one before. I brought out the frame data on the bankai attack. I think the the anime may have thrown people off. Sui Feng fired all we saw was the bankai moving, then His face, then the explosion. There was nothing he could have done. His Majesty Barragan had no time to react. Also,remember that the flames from the explosion trapped him.]. I gave an example of what I meant when I spoke of His Majesty Barragan.

And I think this talk of Starrk winning in base must end. It is impossible. Starrk's only chance at victory is afforded by his released form.

What exactly did Starrk do in base that would guarantee him a victory? We need to reread that fight an point out anything that answers the above question. All Starrk did in base was graze Shunsui. That is it. To opine that Starrk would win by grazing Sui Feng is.... well bonkers. And, highly biased in my mind.
@Dae. You claim Starrk to be a master swordsman. [@Ody, I covered Starrk's in competence in close quarters in my earlier detailed response to Dae.] @Dae But, isn't Starrk a much better shot than he is a swordsman? After all in his released form, he does away with the sword and replaces it with guns. I showed you the lack of proficiency Starrk displayed with his swords in Los Lobos, a weakness Shunsui exploited so much, that Starrk thought, "oh I might need a second sword", and still lost.

The most damage Starrk dealt was in Los Lobos and I considered his powers there against Sui Feng both in Shikai and Bankai. I doubt Sui Feng uses Shunko in Bankai, But I think, again as I said, she can defeat him in Shikai. Especially with Shunko. I highlighted Starrk's weaknesses in melee combat.
I also did not cite kido (mostly because it won't be as much of a factor) But it's still there. Kido can only be broken out of. And it takes time to do that, however short that time is. Just a tiny ingredient in a bowl of whoop-ass I think Sui Feng would serve.

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Also, I forgot, Omaeda and Lillynette are in this battle. If Omaeda kills Lillynette, can Starrk release? I think not. It's the same way an Arrancar can't release a broken zanpakuto. Omaeda is more likely than not to kill Lillynette, and Starrk never gets to release, Omaeda will get in the way of a serious battle which Sui Feng will win.
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2012, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Even if Omaeda kills Lilynette before Starrk released, he'd still defeat Soi Fon in Base. Bankai or not. Quicker if he's serious

She doesn't stand much of a chance frankly. Inferior in every attribute/aspect, the only debatable one is speed and that's not really that debatable at all
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2012, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
Even if Omaeda kills Lilynette before Starrk released, he'd still defeat Soi Fon in Base. Bankai or not. Quicker if he's serious

She doesn't stand much of a chance frankly. Inferior in every attribute/aspect, the only debatable one is speed and that's not really that debatable at all
Point to me what Starrk did in base that makes him so superior to Sui Feng. Anything.

Starrk could do nothing in his base form. Absolutely nothing.
----------
You guys must be joking. Base? I think anyone who guarantees Starrk a victory in base has simply not read those chapters. There is nothing there.

Even in his released form he lost when he relied on 2 swords, and you lot are saying he'll win with one, in base?!. Ridiculous!!

His Cero never even hit. Albeit non-stanced. I'm sorry but the Primera needs to release if he wants to win against not only Shunsui, but any other Captain of the Gotei 13. Fact. Especially Sui Feng.

Please refrain from base discussions, there is nothing there.

The real problem is his released form; whether Sui Feng will need her bankai in defeating him.

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Last edited by goke; 10-20-2012 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Posts auto-merged due to double posting.
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2012, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Quote:
Originally Posted by goke View Post
Point to me what Starrk did in base that makes him so superior to Sui Feng. Anything.
His speed feat of nabbing Orihime and leaving so fast Ichigo couldnt even register what direction he went, is a speed feat Soi Fon couldn't hope to match. What gives you the idea Soi Fon is faster?

CQC? Starrk handled Shunsui, who's a much more fearsome CQC combatant than Soi Fon. His perception and skill far outweigh what Soi has displayed

Intellect? Lol

Durability? Lol

I could go on, but how about you tell me what attributes Soi Fon has an advantage over BASE Starrk in, much less released?

Quote:
Starrk could do nothing in his base form. Absolutely nothing.
He could beat Soi Fon

Quote:
You guys must be joking. Base? I think anyone who guarantees Starrk a victory in base has simply not read those chapters. There is nothing there.
I think you're massively overrating Soi Fon here. She's one of my favorite characters, but nothing suggests her speed is as great as you're making it out to be. There's a reason she was so massively outclassed by the Number 2 Espada, this is the Primera

Quote:
Even in his released form he lost when he relied on 2 swords, and you lot are saying he'll win with one, in base?!. Ridiculous!!
Because Soi Fon = Shunsui right? And she gets the benefit of fighting a Starrk who was just impaled through the chest by Kageoni after using his greatest tech against 2 other Captain level+ opponents. Nah, I'll pass. He won't need 2 swords against Soi Fon

Quote:
His Cero never even hit. Albeit non-stanced. I'm sorry but the Primera needs to release if he wants to win against not only Shunsui, but any other Captain of the Gotei 13. Fact. Especially Sui Feng.
Definitely not. He's shown more than enough to handle Soi Fon. On the flipside, you've implied Soi Fon can beat him in shikai. Yet he can't beat her in Base? Is there logic in this?
Quote:
Please refrain from base discussions, there is nothing there.
Nothing for Soi Fon, maybe. Doesn't disqualify his advantages

Quote:
The real problem is his released form; whether Sui Feng will need her bankai in defeating him.
Whether she will need her Bankai? So you're implying she can beat Released Starrk in Shikai, yet he factually (Not even close to a fact) can't defeat her in his Base form? Clear evidence you're highly overrating the small Captain

Released Starrk would easily deal with her, but his release isn't necessary

Last edited by Buzz Killington; 10-20-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2012, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Quote:
Originally Posted by goke View Post
And I think this talk of Starrk winning in base must end. It is impossible.
It's common sense, actually.

Before and during the Winter War Captain class level characters had gotten either wrecked or seriously pushed back against lower-ranked Espada already. And the most important thing to say is that those Captains entered Bankai-mode (a.k.a. the final stage of theirs) while their Arrancar opponents remained in Sealed form at the respective time. One can clearly see that in the examples of both...

... Bankai Ichigo:
 Spoiler: click to show


... as well as Bankai Hitsugaya:
 Spoiler: click to show


... for example (I could've used the example of Soifon getting pushed back by Sealed Barragan too, but I decided not to mainly because Barragan's haax ability (Senescencia) didn't appear to be advantage over Soifon's forte particularly, but rather advantage over anyone). Both Ichigo and Hitsugaya fall under the category of so called "Junior Captains" and I'm willing to use this term within the context of such, because that's what the dialog between Kyoraku and Starrk heavily implied here:

 Spoiler: click to show


Kyoraku: "Hitsugaya's a genius after all. Give him a hundred years and he might actually surpass me..."

Starrk: "So in other words you're the stronger one."

Kyoraku: "..." (* which was obviously: "Yes, I am." *)

^ Consequently, there shouldn't be a surprise why Senior Captain class fighter fought pretty much on pair against higher-ranked Espada, while Junior Captain class fighter had some serious problems against lower-ranked ones (see above ^). Clearly, the application of "stronger combatants from A team have to fight stronger combatant from B team to make a balance of the battle" story-writing was used here. It was either this application or simply: "Lets tag-team against higher-ranked Espada". Looking at the poll of this thread, I have to say that I'm actually glad the majority recognized the mentioned models of pairing the combatants for the sake of power-scaling I've just presented above.

Finally, when it comes to power, Soifon is rather close to Hitsugaya and Ichigo than to Kyoraku and that's not only because he (Kyoraku) has far more experience than any of these three, but also because logical recording of the given feats during the SS Arc indicates so:
  • Soifon was roughly equal or a bit stronger than rusty Yoruichi (before Shunko came into play)...
  • ... and the very same Yoruichi admitted (loud and clear) that she wouldn't have stand a chance against Byakuya...
  • ... and the very same Byakuya got blitzed twice and went draw against rookie Ichigo

As for Hitsugaya, he faired better against Top Espada (Harribel) than any other Captain against lower-ranked ones (Nnoitra, Zommari, etc.). Elemental advantage or not, he managed to temporarily immobilize his opponent without receiving any serious damage on his own, thus he technically won the respective fight. Hence, Hitsugaya is having soundly better feats (overall) than Soifon at the moment... and not the other way around.

Moreover, where exactly does the argument of an enormous power-gap between Soifon and Ichigo repose in the first place, dude? I'll tell you now - the proposition of such doesn't have any basis, because the valid (direct) measure stick of power between those two is missing - simple as that. But there are other relevant references and each bring us back to Ichigo - that's why he is still the most important (although indirectly) measure stick we have left nonetheless and cannot be simply ignored. And as you can see on your own, people would hardly accept: "Lol, you can see that in the manga" kind of argument.

So, if anything, "Ichigo was just a fodder in comparison with Captains during the HM Arc" kind of stupidities must end, really.

Additionally, the strongest argument you have is: "Soifon is faster than Starrk" as the speed is the only thing that matters in Bleach. What pains me to say is that you didn't convince anyone in it so far. There's a tiny logical fallacy hidden in this type of response which is well-know to those who used to defend goddess of flash (Yoruichi) in the past:

=> Okay, lets pretend Soifon "is" the fastest among the current Gotei 13 for a moment... Well, Starrk is/was an Arrancar, which is a completely different race, therefore this kind of argument is not only ridiculous, but also hardly matters when used dircuitously as in your application.

=> Briefly, someone being the best in particular category among his race neither means nor implies that it's impossible for a champion of another race to have surpassing skills in the same category.


... which is exactly what you're forcing.

^ That said, guys like Starrk, Barragan, Ulquiorra, Wonderwice... could easily have superior speed than that of Soifon for all we know. They may not be as proficient as Soifon in raw Shunpo/Sonido, but their reaction time, reflexes, movement speed (zanjutsu, etc.) could very well be better balanced with the mentioned raw Shunpo/Sonido. Feel free to apply the same thing to Kyoraku, Yamamoto, etc. who are all superior to Soifon overall by a significant margin.

And even if she really is the fastest character alive, it won't matter as much as you wanted it to be. As I said, speed isn't everything in Bleach and one can offer you more than one argument to support this notion.


(A) Example of Yoruichi:

She holds the title of goddess of flash for more than a century and that was somewhat emphasized during the SS Arc when she blitzed Byakuya while carrying Ichigo:

 Spoiler: click to show


Yoruichi: "You cannot catch me with that level of Shunpo..."

... yet she admitted a few chapters later:

 Spoiler: click to show


Yoruichi: "No one there could have survived fight against Byakuya".

CONCLUSION: Although Yoruichi was faster, Byakuya was acknowledged as superior fighter overall by Yoruichi herself. That much is a canon.


(B) Example of Zommari:

 Spoiler: click to show


Zommari: "Gemelos Sonido. Among the Espada, my Sonido is the fastest."

And if his Sonido was the fastest, it's logically to assume that he (in flesh) was the fastest...

... yet he was ranked #7, which is 6 ranks below Starrk (and if you ask, I wouldn't mind to support the idea that ranking numbers indeed represented power directly when it comes to the Espada).

CONCLUSION: Although Zommari was faster (that's what he self-proclaimed, at least), there is a reason why Starrk was ranked higher and the reason is nothing but an overall power.


^ If you're not properly balanced fighter in all categories / aspects, speed would hardly matter.


Last edited by Urahara012; 10-20-2012 at 05:18 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2012, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Stark can win this in base, no need for him to release. No need for Lillynette either.

Also I find it funny her vaunted reputation or Yoruichi's title is being used to determine her speed to be arbitrarily higher than Stark's. If I remember a fourth seat Shinigami had this thing like, this zanpakuto whose name translated into "strongest airborne weapon" or something like that. And of course Yamamoto doesn't literally summon 10 trillion skeletons with his grand array of 10 trillion skeletons technique, etc. etc.

See the problems of vaunted reputations? IIRC the source of said vaunted reputation actually is...Omaeda...
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  #29  
Old 10-21-2012, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

Stark. Mid-diff for the most.

Why you ask?
Because........
 Spoiler: click to show
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  #30  
Old 10-25-2012, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Starrk vs. Soi Fon

I don't even think I need to explain this much. I don't like jumping on the band wagon, but sadly yes Starrk god stomps low difficulty in base. I believe he was AT LEAST as fast as Shunsui who I believe is faster then Soifon. Also, Soifon never showed a speed feet any where near as impressive as when Starrk kidnapped Orihimie.

I would also think that due to Starrk's immense reiatsu, that it is POSSIBLE... Not saying I'm sure lol. But possible that he could actually negate Soifon's shikai with his immense reiatsu. Don't forget before Starrk was recruited by Aizen AND MADE MUCH MORE POWERFUL...

HE WAS ALREADY ACCIDENTLY REI CRUSHING HOLLOWS BY THE HUNDREDS And with the help of Aizen/The Hogyoku... Became MUCH more powerful.

Also, Starrk could easily dodge Soifon's bankai. But he woudn't even give her the chance to use it if he was blood lusted.
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